Marketing is often confused with promotion, but really it's about much more than that. Marketing is about knowing and understanding your customers so well, that your product or service fits them and ultimately sells itself. In short marketing is about insight above all else. In the spirit of those insights, we present our Meet the Marketer series where we discuss the careers and tactics of marketers behind industry leading brands.
In this episode, we sit down with David Miller, chief Marketing Officer at the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation organization that integrates wildlife health and care science and education to develop sustainable conservation solutions. Tune in to discover how David's extensive experience in the entertainment industry, including oppressive past roles at Universal Studios Hollywood and Los Angeles Philharmonic has honed his exceptional marketing expertise. David, thanks for joining us.
Tell us about your time at Universal Studios and the Los Angeles Philharmonic
Reid Carr: Well, before we jump into the current role at the zoo, can we go back in time to talk a little bit about your time at some of the most renowned entertainment companies like Universal Studios Hollywood and the LA Phil Harmonic? Tell us some of those powerful takeaways that you took away from some of those stops.
David Miller: Sure. Exciting times. I was actually at Universal twice back in the mid-nineties. Started my career at Universal Studios Hollywood, and then I was there for about seven years, I guess. And then I went to LA Phil Harmonic Marketing, all of the concerts at the Hollywood Bowl in the summer and all of the concerts at the Walton Concert Hall in the winter. And I guess the biggest difference there was going from a for-profit, big budget, big brand at Universal to a nonprofit, very different marketing messages, very different sales process for LA Phil Harmonic.
And really, I realized when I went to the LA Phil Harmonic, I realized that budgets can kind of solve problems. You can throw money at things and you can't in nonprofit, but I also was able to take my for-profit experience and bring that into the nonprofit. I realized that when you're a nonprofit, you tend to think, well, I can't do that. I can't do that. We're a nonprofit, we can't do this, we can't do that. But I was able to kind of bring in some of the strategies that I learned from Universal into the Philharmonic and kind of change how we marketed concerts and really helped build the revenue. We had, I think, six consecutive record attendance and revenue for both Walt Disney Concert Hall and for the Hollywood Bowl. So it was an exciting time.
How do you balance your marketing approach and the Zoo’s mission?
Reid Carr: Yeah, that's impressive. Well, so that is kind of one of those ideas, balancing mission and marketing, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance prioritizes conservation. So now in this role, how do you approach marketing in a way that's both effective and aligns with the organization's mission?
David Miller: Well, let me back up a little bit. So when I started in February of 2021, we were just about to change our brand and our name. So prior to March of 2021, we were known as kind of our umbrella brand was Sandy Zoo Global. And that represented the work that was done at the San Diego Zoo, the work that was done at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, and a little bit of the conservation that was being done. I mean, there's been conservation work ever since the zoo opened in 1916, but we didn't really communicate the conservation work. So San Diego Zoo Global was more of a B2B when we changed our name in 2021 to San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. That's intended to be a B2C brand, something that we want to market to consumers. So our goal over time is to be known first as a global conservation organization operating the San Diego Zoo and the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
Now, the problem with that is that we weren't given additional dollars to do that. So my charge was to realign resources, realign the team, realign our messages to basically be able to infuse the conservation work into the messages about the zoo and the Safari Park. So how do you talk about the zoo differently to make sure people understand that the zoo is doing 200, 250 projects around the world on six continents at any given time? Most people don't know that. So what we want people to think about is simply by going to the zoo, simply by buying a ticket, going to the zoo, becoming a member, becoming a donor. You are helping us work with animals in the wild all around the world.
And if you see our marketing messages ever since, you start to see that, you see the superheroes campaign, which is all about you're a superhero simply by going to the zoo because by going to zoo, you help us do the work that we do around the world. Safari Park is a little bit different. One thing that we're trying to do is differentiate the experience of the zoo from the Safari Park, make sure that people understand that there are two completely different experiences. So the angle around conservation is a little bit different for the Safari Park, but we're doing that more and more, and we're also doing things PSAs and podcasting and things that really help talk about longer form, talk about the work that we're doing around the world and instilling the conservation work into our brand.
How do you navigate conflicting goals?
Reid Carr: Yeah. Well, so what's interesting is obviously that now you're talking about getting people into the park and then talking about the conservation components of it and connecting those two. Now there have to be instances in which some of your goals might be in conflict with the needs of the animals or the environment. I mean, how do you navigate some of those situations? Or do those situations come up?
David Miller: They do come up. I'll talk about the most recent one, which is about the pandas. Yeah.
Reid Carr: How can we overlook the pandas topic?
David Miller: Yeah, I mean, I'm a marketer. My entire career has been marketing and I've worked on, as you mentioned, a theme park, a movie studio, theme, park concerts, classical music, San Diego Zoo. And I bring in the kind of the mathematics around marketing, which it's the product, there's the product, but it's really about targeting and reaching consumers and driving consumers. The nice thing for me, I didn't realize this until I started thinking about it, is that my entire career has been about putting butts in seats butts through turnstiles butts in beds. I was at Four Seasons for a while. So it's really about the consumer. And so I look at things differently versus our head of conservation. When we start talking about the pandas, I go to, wow, okay, how do we tell people we have pandas at the San Diego Zoo? Well, that's not the reason we have the pandas.
It's actually people think, oh, they have the pandas so they can increase their attendance. And that's not the reason why we have the pandas. We have the pandas because there are conservation projects that we can work on with our Chinese partners and continue to help the pandas that are in the wild. One thing, we've been working with pandas for I think over 30 years. And when we started working with our Chinese partners, the survival rate of panda babies were, or cubs I should say, was under 5% survival rate. We worked closely with our partners in China. We learned things by having the pandas and working with the Pandas 24/7, 365, and we ultimately got that survival rate to be over 95%. And those are the types of things that one, we want to do from as a conservation organization, but we also want people to know that we work collaboratively with our partners in China to help the pandas in China in the wild.
What are some untraditional metrics that measure your work?
Reid Carr: Yeah, well, that's one heck of a metric. You mentioned kind of putting bus through turnstiles and in seats, and so those are traditional marketing metrics. And then you just mentioned this moving the cub survival rate from five to 95%. What are some of those other metrics that you might have that are beyond those traditional sales metrics that you might have as well as then again, the conservation metrics? Anything else in the middle of those two?
David Miller: Well, we do, I don’t know if this is answering your question or not, but we do a lot of research to study consumers to understand how they think about us.
And when we started, we did a benchmark study before we changed our name to see how what they thought about our brand. And at that time, 19 nationally, 19% of national consumers. So you don't want to interview people that are at the zoo in the park because they have a different opinion, they have a different view. So you actually go to people that haven't been to the zoo in the park ever or in a long time and pre name change are 19% of consumers considered us a conservation organization after about a year of that San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance brand. And the work that we started doing that went up to 32%, which was huge. It was huge growth in a year because prior to that, I think it was 10 years and we changed five points, something like that. So we do that study about every year, and we just did it. So we're waiting to see what the results are now to see how people are viewing us, and hopefully that number will increase again, our goal.
How do you foster a culture of innovation?
Reid Carr: Yeah, I mean, that is fascinating because I think a lot of brands that we work with are looking at brand lift studies or brand perception studies. Do you like us, do you not? And this is where one of those cases and other brands go through this of used to see us one way. Now, do you see us another which is of critical importance to the mission of the organization. So yeah, that's pretty fascinating.
David Miller: Yeah, it's exciting.
Reid Carr: And then extending into that, I mean, I think you guys have always been, in my opinion, one of the more innovative brands out there. I mean, I remember back in a long time ago, one of the first to have webcams on the animals that people could tune into. I think your social channels, I mean obviously you have some really incredible starring performers in social, but what are some of the things that you guys are doing to innovate? How do you foster that culture of innovation and maybe some other highlights that maybe people don't know about?
David Miller: Yeah. Well, we're always looking for different ways to connect to the consumer. We've started a podcast similar to yours. I don't know if we have as many listeners as you do, but we're getting there. I think we have about a hundred episodes on wildlife, and each episode is about different species. And again, telling longer stories. And it takes a while to tell people and have people understand the work that we're doing. So we felt that podcasting would be a good way.
Also, we probably have the best, I think we have the best social team in the business, at least for any zoo in the country. We have very, very creative team members that are out there looking at different ways, cutting edge Twitch, of course, TikTok, I think we have the highest TikTok numbers of any zoo in the country, I think. But we also, since we received the pandas in August, we started working with an agency in China to get into China. And we're actually doing social media in China, which you can't do from here. You have to get through the firewall. And so we've hired a company in China, and we're directing them on the messages that we want to tell. And the Chinese consumers are very interested in the pandas, making sure they're okay, making sure they're safe, making sure they're happy. And so we're constantly communicating in China through our social team here. So I really commend them for being able to take that on and run with it.
What is your strategy to engage with people who can’t visit the zoo?
Reid Carr: So now TikTok in China brings up an interesting question for me is that a lot of not everyone can come to the zoo. I mean, they can be in China and not be able to make that trip, or they could be in the middle of the US and not be able to make that trip. So I think some of the social channels that you're talking about give people exposure to the zoo and your efforts when they can't necessarily go there. I mean, that has to be part of the dedicated strategy here because not only so many people can come through those turnstiles. So I'm kind of curious of what the strategy is there in the thought process of how you engage beyond those who can attend?
David Miller: Yeah. Well, one of the reasons to evolve our brand to become known as a global conservation organization is to be able to break away from being known as a southern California brand. So right now, most people think still San Diego Zoo, it's a zoo in San Diego, but as we become known as a global conservation organization, you can tap into that from anywhere and support us from anywhere. So one of our growing pains right now is to start to evolve all of the different products that we have. We have memberships, for instance. We have I think 12 or 13 different levels of member ships that you can join. All of those memberships have access to both of our parks for year round. Well, if you're from Des Moines, Iowa or the UK, that doesn't really provide a benefit. So we're working right now on a virtual membership where wherever you are, you can tap into our brand and connect with our brand.
We have many, many, many cams, animal cams. We have a new panda cam that we just went live, our CEO was in Times Square and the big switch on Good Morning America. And so now everyone from around the world. And we had huge, huge response to the panda cam that day. And it continues to grow. It's amazing the excitement that people have. And people turn on the panda cam, they leave it on their desk and it just runs and they look over it every now and then. And it's exciting for people to engage. And we upgraded the cameras too, and they're the highest quality cameras. I was looking at footage thinking, well, why are we showing B roll of the Penda? No, that's the cam. Yeah, right. That's amazing. That's how good it is. But that's the thing, we have to figure out exactly what are those benefits? What are those changes that we need to make as we become a global brand so that people can engage with us, like consumers in San Diego can engage with us. So we're looking at every single touch point, and our goal is really to bring in consumers so they understand the work that we're doing. We tell, again, we tell longer stories and we have ways. We have a journal magazine that we publish six times a year, which talks about all of the stories that we're doing around the world.
We are developing more and more content where we're creating films and episodes. We have three episodes right now with Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom that runs nationally on NBC Saturday mornings. So again, we're doing more and more things to connect consumers who never come to Southern California.
How do you keep strategies fresh and relevant?
Reid Carr: Yeah, so what's interesting about all that, the list there is a lot of those also have costs and investments that you had to make and decide, we're going to do this and I know it's going to work, or we believe it's going to work. How do you keep the strategies fresh and relevant in the changing landscape and then get the budget, get the support, and get the team aligned with that. And I'll actually even preempt the next question to that is how do you know when something maybe isn't working? It's time to peel off from it.
David Miller: So I've never been in my career, I've never been in a more of change in the media landscape ever. Things are changing so quickly now, and part of I feel my role is a change agent, and I'm always looking at what used to work may not work any longer. And I'm instilling that in my team to challenge everything to look at. Just because you've been doing it and it was successful doesn't mean that we should be doing it and that it's still successful. And we are a nonprofit, so we do struggle with budgets and costs keep going up. Media goes up, I think 8% annually and a few years, and you're cutting your media pressure in half if you're not adding to that budget for media. So the way that I do it is if we're looking at doing new things, we're always looking at doing new things.
We're always new opportunities. And as we evolve, we have to do things differently and there are costs for that. So what I talked to the team about is if we want to do something and we feel we need to do something, but we don't have a budget for it, then everything else that we're currently doing has to be better than that. Otherwise we should stop doing it and do the new thing that is better. And so people are starting to understand that. People always want to hold onto their budgets. I don't want to let go of my money, I won't get it back. And our finance team is amazing. If we even give money back because we have savings, we can get it back if we need it. So that philosophy is being instilled in team members. So people are being more flexible
And looking at, this doesn't make sense anymore. I'm giving this money back so we can do this new thing. So that is a culture change for the organization. The organization didn't have a lot of change for a lot of years, and our CEO who came in in 2019 started looking at things and really wanting to make, needing to make effective changes. And so it's taken a while, but I think we're finally starting to the ship and putting it in the right direction and being nimble. I tell my team, don't sit at your desk, look down and do your job because your job will change and you won't realize it. Get up, take meetings, go to conferences, go to webinars, listen, learn. Things are changing so fast that if you don't learn, you won't be as effective as you were a year ago.
How do you develop a culture and leadership in a legacy type of organization?
Reid Carr: Where does all of that come from, and speaking a little bit to leadership style, you mentioned the CEO and then obviously in your role, I don't remember specifically when the organization started, but I think it's probably a hundred years, something like that. So how do you develop a culture like this in such a legacy type organization and how would you describe a leadership style that creates that spirit of innovation? And what you mentioned is people, I never hear about people giving budget back and being able to then get it back. So what does it take to create a culture like that?
David Miller: It takes a strong leader of the organization. Our CEO is amazing and truly has defined where we need to be, and that's important. And that doesn't happen very often. Usually leaders manage and things, but they don't truly provide a vision of where we need to go. We had lot of changes that needed to be made for us to be successful, and he's led us in that direction. And I think the team more and more is seeing that vision and aligning with that vision, which is key for me. I always try to instill creativity, and it's not just creativity for the creative department, but creativity in everything we do. In media, you can be creative in your media planning, you can be creative in promotions, you can be creative in digital marketing. Everything has a creative element, but it also creates something that helps to create passion in team members. They get excited about it because it's creative. It's not just finance or accounting or the numbers that go along with marketing. You can be creative and if you think that way, it starts to make people excited about what they're doing and how it all works together for the greater good.
How does a sense of purpose foster excitement about creative marketing?
Reid Carr: Yeah. And do you think that that comes naturally with an organization such as the zoo that is in conservation that has a sense of higher purpose or can that happen? Do you feel like that can just happen anywhere?
David Miller: I think it helps having a strong mission. And I was talking to the team yesterday about, they were asking what my favorite part of my job is, and I said that having a mission, I came from Universal primarily. I was there the longest and it was all about shareholder value, increasing shareholder value, and the people were great. I had an amazing team there, but we didn't have that mission. We didn't have that greater good that we were all striving for separate from just doing our job, separate from doing a good job. We were all working towards a mission. And there's something there which I didn't realize coming from Universal. I didn't realize it until I was in it and we had it. The nice thing from a marketing standpoint is that having a product that helps the greater good is always helpful in marketing. But the team, I've never had a more engaged, passionate team than the team that I have now.
How should others infuse purpose into their brand?
Reid Carr: So talking about leadership, I think there's a lot of folks, listeners who would love to be in your chair at some point, and I think a lot of folks out there at a high level want to work for purpose driven brands. Now the zoo is one where I think the purpose is baked into nearly everything that you do and think there's a lot of organizations there who want to build purpose in as kind of an ancillary feature to what they do. What would you say to the folks who are trying to infuse purpose into their brand, what the lessons that you've learned and how to do that maybe authentically and maybe where all of this is going so that it is actually meaningful and purpose driven?
David Miller: I think connecting the work that is being done with the marketing message in an honest way. One thing I noticed when I started at San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance was that I mentioned that we do 200, 250 projects a year, or I'm sorry, at any given time.
We're doing this. And our team, our PR team was trying to tell every story and even stories that didn't build the brand, that didn't support how we were trying to position the brand and how consumers viewed us, but they were stories and felt that they needed to be told. And at that time, I think we were averaging about 25 billion impressions a year. We started changing how we told stories, which stories we would tell less is more. You don't need to tell every story. You don't need to focus on every story. I always say we have, there's a finite bandwidth of labor and a finite bandwidth of budget, and you need to really stay within those. And if you're spending too much time on something, you're wasting bandwidth that you could be spending on other more effective projects. So we started telling less stories, but stories that we felt would go farther and would help build our brand as a global conservation organization. And we're now at about 350 billion impressions year to date for 2024. Now, some of that is pandas, I should say, but I think non pandas is still about close to 200 billion.
Reid Carr: You have to measure non panda impressions.
David Miller: We have two metrics now with pandas. Without pandas, we have to, we can get really comfortable.
Reid Carr: Oh yeah. I mean, it's got to be black and white, right?
David Miller: Yeah, exactly. But know what your superpower is. Know what will strengthen your connection to the consumer and focus on that shed everything else. I love using the term shed with my team because most people are afraid to do it. Why do this? I've always done this. It's my comfort space. I know how to do it. It's easy. People kind of get in the usual suspects. Their partners are the same. It's always the same because it's easy. You start to shed that and start doing new things that are going to be more effective. It's dangerous, it's unchartered territory for team members, but by doing it, you're fresh gets back to that creativity. But don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid of focusing on what's going to help define your brand to your target audience in the most effective way.
What are the skills and expertise most valuable to you in this field?
Reid Carr: Yeah. Well, I think it's appropriate using an animal term like shed, I guess I always think of that as isn't that the feature of a reptile that grows they shed. So it seems to work. Yeah, it does. Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say beyond, I think a lot of what you're talking about there, but even down to more specific skills and expertise, what do you think for marketing leaders, again, they're kind of in that area of their career of they really feel like they need to work on something and develop something. What would you say are skills and expertise that are most valuable to you? The future marketers that are in a field such as yours or want to be in a field such as yours?
David Miller: I mentioned earlier about working for very different products, working for a movie studio, theme park, working for classical music, brand working for a hotel, working for a conservation organization. But the marketing fundamentals are very similar. You have a target audience, you have a life cycle, you have a purchase cycle of when consumers are going to purchase, which is getting shorter and shorter, but the fundamentals are very similar. And stick to the fundamentals, learn the fundamentals because those won't change. Things will evolve in different media, vehicles and things. But in general, the marketing fundamentals work with various products. And if you learn those and continue to take classes, continue to go to conferences, I tend to take, and my team is surprised that I do, but I take vendor call after vendor call after vendor call because I always learn something. I always learn that they talk about, well, we did this for our client, or we did this, we have this new technology. And I wouldn't have known that otherwise. So I always say just because you graduate from college doesn't mean you can stop learning. You should find ways to learn because it'll help you in whatever job you're in. Those marketing fundamentals will help you moving forward. And that would be my recommendation.
What has been your favorite thing to learn about in this position?
Reid Carr: Well, that's an incredible secret weapon. I think. I feel the same way. I mean, you get a vendor out there that's doing something unique, they're telling you a case study, which is what we'd go to school for a lot of times. Exactly. Obviously you don't necessarily have to buy that technology, but you certainly will soak up something. And a lot of times there's probably something in there that you take away. And I think that's, I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say that, and I think that makes all the sense in the world, and that's fantastic. That's great advice. One of the things I love about our job here as an agency is the exposure we have to so many different brands and so many different companies and all the various things you get to learn. What are some of the things you've learned about animals that you didn't expect? What are your favorite fun facts that you've taken away from all this exposure you now have to all the different animals out there and the wildlife and the scientists? I mean, there's so much I'm sure to learn with your curiosity.
David Miller: Oh, I am the luckiest marketer in the world. And people do, you said it earlier, people do say, wow, to have your job, to have your job. And I do think about that all the time, having this brand, this product, I hate calling the animals product, but the brand of San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, the brand of San Diego Zoo, the brand of San Diego Zoo, safari Park, all of those have different meanings and different uses in how we talk about them. But to walk into the zoo, I have meetings at the zoo every week, and I'll walk through the zoo and I'll see families together and the kids that are pointing at the next habitat and running as fast as they can to see it. And I think about that and I think about I had a little bit to do with that of them having that moment that the parent with the child and the experience where the children aren't sitting in front of a television, they're actually engaged and showing the smile on their face to their parents, which to the parents has got to be the best thing ever. It's funny, when I came from Universal to the San Diego Zoo, we have a pretty extensive production team. We have, I think five or six videographers, couple photographers, and I remember thinking and talking to the team, why do we have so many videographers? Because I came from Universal. We had one, maybe one and a half. And then I realized, well, the product at Universal doesn't change. You open Jurassic Park or Jurassic World, the ride you shoot it, that ride doesn't change. You show people coming down the boat into the splash, hands in the air. You could use that footage over and over and over and over.
Our product changes every minute. And if you're not there capturing it, if you don't see that birth or that animal do a certain thing, you'll never see it again and you won't have it. So we're constantly shooting magic at both parks all the time and incorporating that footage and those moments into vehicles that support and build our brand. And that's exciting. I love looking at B roll and looking at footage that was captured and just seeing the footage for the first time and thinking, I'm so glad we caught that on film. So excited that we're going to be able to use that to represent what it's like to go to the zoo or the Safari park.
Reid Carr: That's wonderful. I mean, there's so much higher purpose to this. You talk about the kids and their smiles too. I mean, he's creating experiences for people and for families that they'll never forget. That has to be incredibly rewarding as well.
David Miller: Yeah, and we're working now as we talk about being known as a global conservation organization. We didn't have a lot of that footage that represented the conservation work around the world. So we're working right now with a production company who just finished, they just finished shooting in Kenya, and I just saw the footage that was shot there, and it is so beautiful, and the work that we're doing there is amazing. And they're moving on to Peru and they're going to be shooting projects that we're doing in Peru. And to have all of that footage combined with the footage of the zoo and the Safari Park to really show the totality of what we do on grounds working with the animals to help improve their lives, and then learning about those animals because we are with them 24/7, 365, and then working with partners around the world that are working with those same species in the wild who don't have as much access because they're in the wild. And we teach them tools to help them improve their lives. There's a group that we work with in Kenya that saves orphan elephants, and they didn't realize that the formula changed as the elephant grew. And so we taught them that it changes and you need to adjust it as they grow. And it improved the lives of those orphaned elephants in Kenya. And that was from what we learned at the Safari Park.
So all of that together just is what we're trying to express and have people understand that that's what a visit to the Safari Park is. It's more of a research facility that you're visiting to see the work that we're doing there and how it affects animals in the wild around the world.
What is your favorite animal?
Reid Carr: That's interesting. Yeah, I think so often as a consumer, you think about the access to animals by going and seeing them, but you don't think about the access to the animals with the folks who are working with them and how important that is because of the limited access they might have elsewhere. So that's another interesting takeaway from me. So my last question, very curious is do you have a favorite animal? I'm sure you get asked that all the time.
David Miller: I do get asked that all the time, and I wouldn't say it changed, but for years, the polar bear has been my favorite animal, and partly because of the dichotomy of how cuddly and you want to just go up and put your arms around it and you realize that you could do that once. But I have to say the pandas are starting to become my number one. I was able to go back in March, I think, to Shendu China and see the pandas that we were going to receive when they were in habitat in China. And having that connection was amazing. And to see the panda bears that we were going to receive there and then have them arrive, and it actually was interesting. I didn't realize the love that the Chinese people have for the pandas. Everywhere we went, there were billboards and signs pandas everywhere, and it just showed the love that people have for pandas. And it actually helped us create our campaign for pandas to talk about this connection that people have around the world. It crosses borders, it's universal around the world. The love for pandas, there's the term pandemonium.
And think about it, you would never use that for any other animal. You would never say koala bear ammonium or lion ammonium. I mean, it's pandemonium. It only works with pandas because of that energy that people have. And that's really what we wanted to tap into is that love and that universal love for the pandas in our campaign when we brought Pandas back to the San Diego.
Reid Carr: Yeah, maybe on the weekend, sloth ammonium maybe. Well, I mean that is I think another fantastic reminder for marketers getting out there and getting that exposure. And that's also obviously unique exposure because I think it changed. It sounds like it changed your perception of how to market what you're doing with the product. So I always encourage marketers to get out there. You talk about the learning, but the curiosity in and around the product, seeing the guests and seeing how folks interact, and this is a case too, is seeing them in completely different environments, which inform what you're doing there too. So really appreciate you being on the show here. I know this is invaluable to the marketers that are listening and our audience that's listening here. So thanks so much for joining us.
David Miller: Thanks for having me. I loved it.
Reid Carr: Be sure to check out show notes from this episode and more at reddoor.biz/learn. And as always, subscribe to the marketing remix and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.